Thursday, October 18, 2007

V.I.P. Access and no less will do for some....

One of the common arguments one will often here from the truth movement members goes like this...

"Well how do we know.." Insert piece of 9/11 evidence here, " real. Have you seen it. How do we know they didn't just create it, or how do we know they didn't just manipulate it?"

This approach, this completely outlandish expectation really bothers me. What on earth makes these people think that they, average everyday investigooglers, some how should have access to all of the evidence from a criminal investigation. Whether the case is closed, or is likely the case in 9/11, still ongoing, there is no law that says you have access to any and all information in a criminal case. The FOIA does not guarantee access to any and all documents from all institutions, regardless of their status or context.

Do these came people think they should have access to their neighbour's medical records? Should they have access to Classified govt documents? How about Uncle Hank's bedroom videos? I know these are extreme examples, but how far is it from what the truth movement feels they should have access to?

1. Pentagon Tapes? FOIA requests have been made, and explanations given as to why they have been denied.

2. Debris from AA77? Should the truthers be paraded into a hangar somewhere and a tour guide give them pamphlets?

3. Tapes of the Cell Phone / Airfone Calls? Do the families have no right to have them withheld from the public? Do the airline companies or the phone companies have no rights to withhold the contents from whomever they wish?

No matter how much you argue with the truthers that the real world does not work like that, they are insistent that they will not believe anything until they have seen it with their own eyes, held it in their own hands...well dream on.


Blogger Jason said...

I would suggest reading the Freedom of Information Act if you're curious why people are upset. If everything happened exactly according to the OT, then there should be no problem releasing the information.

Ask yourself, how are the unreleased Pentagon videos a threat to national security? Why are the two videos they did release *not* a threat to national security? What's the difference between the various unreleased videos and the two they released? ..and finally, if you've answered those questions correctly, you arrive at:

Why are the videos showing exactly *what* hit the Pentagon a threat to national security?


Also, feel free to take a look through the files of any other US murder investigation. All of the information is public - nothing withheld. 9/11 was mass-murder. What's the difference? There isn't one.

PS - you're a Canadian citizen, right? And you've just written an article slamming US citizens for standing up for their well-documented rights? It really bothers you when we do that? Classy. Real classy.

5:17 PM  
Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

1. The information for ACTIVE ONGOING murder investigations is NOT PUBLICLY AVAILABLE. Any evidence that might be used at a later date to convict OBL or KSM of these crimes, can be considered evidence in an ONGOING INVESTIGATION.

2. I have no problem with you standing up for your rights. We Canadians love our freedoms as well. My beef is with those insane moronic individuals who think they should have UNLIMITED ACCESS to all the evidence under any and all circumstances, which is a compromise of law inforcement, and in this case national security.

You are welcome to try, I am simply saying it is unrealistic to think you should have access to such important info that may be vital to convicting the terrorists of these crimes.

Take it or leave it...thanks for your opinion.


10:15 AM  
Blogger Jason said...

Those "insane, moronic individuals"? I'll look beyond the psychological & sociological reasons why that is an absurd statement, and focus on the issue of evidence. Here are the problems:

- the US Government is not withholding ALL evidence in this "ongoing investigation". For example, the two videos of the Pentagon crash - why are those OK, but the rest of them not OK? Why did they remove one or more frames from the guard-gate video (the exact frame(s) that would confirm that portions of the OT -- nothing more, nothing less)? If your "ongoing investigation" assertion was correct, they would have withheld everything, regardless.

- when a murder case is "ongoing" and evidence is being withheld, the US Government does not publicly condemn one or more parties for that crime, as we've seen with 9/11. They told us on day two who was responsible for this, and even went to war over it.. yet the investigation is "ongoing"? Unprecedented, and unacceptable.

- the US Government operates with a certain degree of transparency (checks & balances, in a way). In the case of 9/11, that transparency does not exist. I haven't done a very good job of articulating my thoughts here, but I'm not sure how else to put it.

In other words, pretend for a moment that John Doe gets murdered in Anytown, USA. The Chief of Police for Anytown comes out immediately and says that Mr. X committed the murder. There will be no trial, because Mr. X is nowhere to be found. The Chief also announces his immediate engagement to Jane Doe (wife of the recently deceased).

When pressed about this, the Chief decides to have his closest deputy do a full investigation. He also releases a video tape of the murder, but the frames of the video where the killers face can be seen are edited out. He claims to have DNA evidence pointing to Mr. X, but it can't be released to the public because the investigation is ongoing.


Although it's not perfectly analogous, it has the same underlying theme.

See anything wrong with that? That sort of thing should never be allowed to happen - and it has. That's why so many "insane, moronic people" are upset. It's about transparency, and we would have it if 9/11 was handled like a US murder investigation should be handled.

1:30 AM  
Blogger The Artistic Macrophage said...

My comment stands that anyone who thinks they should have access to any and all information in an ongoing criminal investigation is insane and is my opinion.

I do agree that the current govt lacks transparency. This is not a good thing, and I chastise them for it.

The suspects in this ongoing criminal investigation are OBL, KSM, and other members of Al-Qaeda. Ultimately it also included the 19 hijackers, but they are all dead. Lots of times the suspects will be announced prior to gathering all the evidence or closing the case. The war issue, well thats another discussion. They made a judgement call that there was enough evidence against OBL etc..., that they could go to war over it...That is a political question.

In many criminal cases certain pieces of info may be released by the investigators, however, it is there right to keep what evidence they wish, from the eyes of the public, if the investigation is ongoing.

Ultimately, the pentagon tapes were not released because the FBI agent in charge of them, reviewed them, and found the only ones that matched the FOIA request (to release any tapes from the pentagon that showed the attack) were the two already released. All but 13 of those tapes did not even show the area of the pentagon that was hit....see

Thanks for the reply


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